IN CONVERSATION WITH ADV: MANU SEBASTIAN, CONVENOR, 'DHWANI' DEBATING SOCIETY

INTERVIEW/Editor-in-Chief, Kerala Law Review in conversation with Adv: Manu Sebastian, Convenor, 'Dhwani'

Adv: Manu Sebastian, Convenor, 'Dhwani'

 Manu Sebastian, a young advocate practising in the High Court of Kerala, comes across as a go-getter, -a man with a vision and a mission. As you size up the man during the course of your conversation with him, you sense that behind his jovial exterior, lies a steely, determined and ambitious mind. Manu Sebastian is the Convenor of ‘DHWANI’, a group formed by junior lawyers of the Kerala High Court under his leadership to debate socio-legal and political issues of contemporary relevance. Quiz him about Dhwani, and he has this to say: 
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"It.. gives a platform which encourages a person to rise above his inhibitions and insecurities and to express his ideas freely. If you’re aspiring to be a person with vibrancy in thoughts and dynamism in action, then this is the ideal group to be in."

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‘DHWANI’ which was formed only last month, has already managed to create waves among the legal fraternity here, as evidenced by an ever growing number of members and participants at its debates which are held every Friday evening at the Theosophical Society, Ernakulam. The subject of each Friday’s debate is informed to members of the group in advance so that they can come prepared and make an effective contribution in the deliberations of the group. The facebook page of ‘DHWANI’ explains its objective thus : 

“Dhwani’s objective would be to encourage uninhibited discourse on issues with the intention of eliciting truth and dissemination of the same. Dhwani would strive to air the voice of Truth and to dispel the commotion of misinformation, without the baggage of any ideology. It would act as a platform for ‘unlike’ minded people, who have a passion for knowledge and reason, to share their views and opinions. In ‘Dhwani’, such divergent opinions and dispositions would be synthesized and Truth would be refined out of crude facts. Thus, ‘Dhwani’ would act as a distillery of Truth; and a repository of knowledge. Whether truth could be so easily synthesized and refined is another problem. Nonetheless, there will be an attempt. But there would not be any fundamental claim on such truth and it would be subject to further synthesis, as all sorts of fundamentalism is an anathema to 'Dhwani'. The dialectical method developed in Ancient Greece by Socrates, and also in our civilization through ‘Tarka Shastra’, will act as a guide for our investigation of truth.”

Earlier this week, the editor-in-chief of Kerala Law Review had an e-mail conversation with Shri. Manu Sebastian to better understand the objectives of ‘DHWANI’, the nature of its deliberations and the kind of impact it hopes to make. Here is the full text of the transcript of the interview:

KLR: How did the idea of forming 'Dhwani' originate? How were the seeds of ‘Dhwani’ planted in your mind?

Manu Sebastian: I must confess the idea for forming the said group for facilitating discussions and dissemination of information came to my mind during last Gandhi Jayanthi, while I was reading some articles on the life of Gandhiji.  Though I have some reservations about Gandhian thoughts and way of life, in Gandhi I could find a determined person who was good at organizing movements for public causes.  He was a man of action with doggedness and taking inspiration from him I too felt that I should do something more creative involving people, rather than confining myself to the profession. While so, the idea of a ‘debating society’ introduced to me by my friend Adarsh three years back came to my mind. Though we used to have discussions on the idea, nothing concrete was done to further it. I felt like reviving that idea and to act for realizing it. Immediately I called up my friends Adarsh and Legit and they also felt encouraged. Thus the idea became a reality. If I am permitted to give an analogy, the idea was akin to a piece of ember covered under ashes, and I just blew off the ashes to reignite the flames. Only the initial push was given, and the events took their own course to their logical end, courtesy the wholehearted support rendered by Adarsh and Legit. It was due to the efforts of Adarsh that we could find a place for our meetings in Theosophical Society. Legit has been a source of strong moral support and his never dying optimism has been a great help during moments of self-doubt. 

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"taking inspiration from him (Gandhi-ji) I too felt that I should do something more creative involving people, rather than confining myself to the profession."

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KLR: Is Dhwani a closed club of lawyers, or is it open for all? 

Manu Sebastian: Not at all.  It’s just that the founding members are lawyers and it’s just a coincidence.  It’s open to all sections.

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"It was due to the efforts of Adarsh that we could find a place for our meetings in Theosophical Society. Legit has been a source of strong moral support and his never dying optimism has been a great help during moments of self-doubt."

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KLR: What would you say, is the USP of Dhwani? 

Manu Sebastian: I’m afraid USP would be wrong term to use in connection with our group. And we do not claim to be having any exclusive speciality as well. It’s a forum for encouraging free thinking and uninhibited expression of ideas, where people from different walks of life having diverse ideologies and philosophies assemble. It will open one’s mind to other perspectives on reality and thereby would enrich a person. It also gives a platform which encourages a person to rise above his inhibitions and insecurities and to express his ideas freely. If you’re aspiring to be a person with vibrancy in thoughts and dynamism in action, then this is the ideal group to be in. In our generation, there are many who feel very dissatisfied with the system and live with a strong sense of cynicism about everything and feel that nothing could be changed. Then there are some who are not at all concerned about what is going around and are happy with the comforts of their life.There are also some who maintain extreme views and fundamental positions. Such cynicism, apolitical attitude and fundamentalism are all unhealthy trends. Our intention is to eradicate such negative inclinations in youth and thereby to enable persons to be spirited agents of change. 

KLR: Why this preference for the 'dialectical method of discourse' adopted by Socrates? How does it help in arriving at the truth?
Manu Sebastian: ‘Dialectical method of discourse’ developed by Ancient Greek philosophers has withstood the test of time. It is a process wherein the validity of a hypothesis is tested by subjecting it to harsh attack from opposing views. Thus the hypothesis is distilled and purified with the antithesis to form a synthesis, which is lucid with logic. Even our adversarial system of judiciary is inspired from this thought process. It’s very simple- you test the strength of an argument in the touchstone of the counter-argument. It does not rely on rhetoric, or appeals to emotion and sentiments and is strictly logical in its investigation of truth.

KLR:  The facebook page of ‘Dhwani’ refers to the classic story of the blind men and the elephant to canvas for the proposition that there could be various versions of truth which we remain oblivious of because of the limitations of our senses etc. How tenable is the use of that analogy? Isn't that analogy strictly applicable only to the case of subjective experiences? How do you explain its applicability to say, socio-legal or political matters which are what find a place on the agenda of ‘Dhwani’? 

Manu Sebastian: The simple fable of ‘blind men and the elephant’ conveys a very deep thought and it is very apt to describe our founding philosophy. An exact version of truth is possible only in matters pertaining to science. In matters pertaining to socio-political issues, such certainty of truth is not possible. All of us have our own opinions, which emanate from our mindsets formed by our subjective experiences. For example, on an issue like reservation, a person from a disadvantaged group and a person from privileged class would be having differing opinions. And its not possible to brush aside either of the view points as totally baseless. There is an element of truth in both the versions. So our perspectives regarding socio-political issues are always incomplete and it becomes more cogent upon knowing the other-side. The endeavour is to rid ourselves of the tendency to cling obstinately to our views and to enable us to be alive to other possibilities. There is no unidimensional version of truth. While in scientific investigation the objective is to arrive at the most accurate truth by excluding all other possibilities, in socio-political issues the objective should be to arrive at the most appropriate truth by balancing all other possibilities. We intend to do that balancing act after weighing all contrasting opinions. 

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"Our perspectives regarding socio-political issues are always incomplete and it becomes more cogent upon knowing the other-side. The endeavour is to rid ourselves of the tendency to cling obstinately to our views and to enable us to be alive to other possibilities."

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KLR: Isn't it plausible that the participants of Dhwani may discuss topics and events of which they themselves have little direct knowledge of by virtue of their being non-participants or non-actors in such developments, and only hearsay awareness or knowledge, or speak on borrowed ideas. How then, would be your quest for deriving the truth be achieved in such an event in view of the imperfections of the participants to aid in the quest for truth? 

Manu Sebastian: Well, I don’t totally deny that. But our human mind is capable of discerning information and processing it for the purposes of arriving at a conclusion and one needn’t have a direct participation in the events for that. For example, to take a position on the rights of LGBT, one needn’t essentially belong to that category. Or to form an opinion on Palestine-Israel conflict, on needn’t hail from those regions. Last week we had a discussion on Nehruvian legacy, and none of us, obviously, are the contemporaries of Nehru; still we could have a fruitful discussion which was rich with information and suffused with diverse views. Yes, I don’t deny that there could be imperfections. But that needn’t preclude us from probing the issue. To arrive at the best possible conclusion within the constraints of available means and materials- that’s the endeavour. 

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"Yes, I don’t deny that there could be imperfections. But that needn’t preclude us from probing the issue. To arrive at the best possible conclusion within the constraints of available means and materials- that’s the endeavour. "

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KLR: Even the Evidence Act followed in Courts in India for well over a century now speaks only of probabilities of proof, and not about derivation of truth. That probably shows how difficult and vexing an endeavour, derivation of truth is. When even Courts therefore concern themselves with only  judging which of the litigants before it has been able to discharge the burden of proof to its satisfaction, isn't your quest for derivation of truth a little too idealistic, far-fetched and impractical? 

Manu Sebastian: As stated earlier, our quest for truth is not a forensic or empirical method and it’s a process of balancing act to reach an appropriate position with respect to an issue. The Greek philosopher Plato has propounded a concept of golden mean, which represents the ideal position one has to adopt with respect to an issue after accounting for all perspectives. Our derivation of truth approximates the said concept of golden mean. We are not making any claims for deriving the absolute truth. Our philosophy also rejects the notion of singularity of truth. So the derivation of truth, as explained above, is totally practical and achievable. Yes, a quest for absolute truth can be really vexing and it is capable of being undertaken by high quality minds, like that of Jesus, Buddha, Sankaracharya etc. We are not functioning in such higher planes for the moment. We are more concerned with temporal matters, to which all of us can relate to. Idealistic, it is; but idealism does not deter us. On the contrary, it inspires it. We all should aspire for ideals, shouldn’t we? 

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"We are not making any claims for deriving the absolute truth. Our philosophy also rejects the notion of singularity of truth."

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KLR: How would you cope with increasing participation in Dhwani's experiments with truth? Given the obvious constraints of time which you face, and the need for letting every speaker share his/her views and juxtaposing it with the need to derive the truth, as you put it, wouldn't it become too unwieldy and difficult to handle? 

Manu Sebastian: Increasing participation is not at all a matter of concern and that is something we really welcome. We are functioning in a disciplined manner, quite conscious of the constraints, and so far it has not been difficult. But there is an area of imperfection which comes in our process, which is the interplay of the emotions. The dialectical method as explained above, is a very stoic and logical method, and to practise that one needs great discipline of mind. So often one tends to get impassioned about his views and that clouds logic. There is also an individual bias in favour of a proposition advanced by one, emanating from one’s egoistic attachment to the same, and it often precludes one from letting go of  the position and accepting a contrary version. When one cannot rely much on reason and logic to substantiate the contention, recourse is made to appeals to emotion, by employment of rhetoric and sophistry. That is a method of winning an argument; but not for derivation of truth. So the presence of such subjective and emotional elements does vitiate our process often. But that’s an issue which could be worked out gradually. 

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"When one cannot rely much on reason and logic to substantiate the contention, recourse is made to appeals to emotion, by employment of rhetoric and sophistry. That is a method of winning an argument; but not for derivation of truth. So the presence of such subjective and emotional elements does vitiate our process often. "

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KLR: Let's now come to the second part of the interview, Manu. How do you envisage Dhwani, say 5 years down the line. What kind of impact do you think Dhwani would be able to make in society? What is the impact you would like to see Dhwani make in society? 

Manu Sebastian: We would want to see our group emerging as a collective of intelligent and free thinking persons, who would be able to enlighten the people about the issues which affect their lives and thereby to help them to deal with the same in an effective manner. Instead of getting carried away by the glib talk of politicians and the misinformation dished out by popular media, we will embolden the people to respond to issues in a rational manner after arriving at an appropriate decision with respect to the matter. We would want to spread the idea of dialectical method and inculcate the habit of questioning and probing in the minds of people, so that they would absorb information only with a pinch of salt. Making the public more discerning- that would be our impact. And discernment only comes through practise and our sessions would enable a person to be so. Our idea is to form a society which doesn’t react in a knee-jerk fashion; but only after studying and analysing the matter. Let people have a bit of scepticism about everything; but not cynicism. Let people not get swayed away by high voltage media campaigns and the cult imagery of demagogic politicians. Thereby we will have a healthy and powerful democracy. 

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"Instead of getting carried away by the glib talk of politicians and the misinformation dished out by popular media, we will embolden the people to respond to issues in a rational manner after arriving at an appropriate decision with respect to the matter."

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KLR: Please share with us your future plans for the expansion of ‘Dhwani’. Manu Sebastian: As of now our activities are confined to having weekly discussions on topics of social relevance. We are planning to take measures to disseminate the information and perspectives gathered in our sessions to wider public. We have a facebook page which contains information regarding our activites. But we would like to have a wider reach across the society, and we intend to float a magazine, preferably in vernacular medium, so as to spread our ideas to all sections of society. We are also attempting to solicit the presence of distinguished individuals in different fields so as to have a well-informed discussion on topics touching upon their respective fields.

We are also desirous of collaborating with educational institutions, so that we can have the participation of students as well in our group. Since there are lawyers in our group, we plan to have legal awareness campaigns in schools, which would enable the school children to have awareness of our constitution and legal system from a young age and we believe that would help in bringing up citizens with better civic sense and increased awareness of rights and duties. Now our activities are centred in Cochin and we are seeking to expand to other parts as well gradually. 

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"We are also attempting to solicit the presence of distinguished individuals in different fields so as to have a well-informed discussion on topics touching upon their respective fields. "

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KLR: Thank You, Manu for spending time with us and enlightening our readers about your debating group, ‘Dhwani’. We wish you and your friends all success. 

[Editor's Note: Readers are welcome to ask any further questions to Adv: Manu Sebastian about his group 'Dhwani' by posting their queries as comments hereunder in the 'Comments' section. KLR will endeavour to get the answers to the queries posed by readers from Manu himself, and publish the same as a supplement to this interview.]