INTERVIEW/Editor-in-Chief, Kerala Law Review in conversation with Adv: Manu Sebastian, Convenor, 'Dhwani'
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| Adv: Manu Sebastian, Convenor, 'Dhwani' |
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Manu Sebastian, a young advocate practising in the
High Court of Kerala, comes across as a go-getter, -a man with a vision and a
mission. As you size up the man during the course of your conversation with him,
you sense that behind his jovial exterior, lies a steely, determined and
ambitious mind. Manu Sebastian is the Convenor of ‘DHWANI’, a group formed by junior lawyers of the Kerala High Court under his leadership to
debate socio-legal and political issues of contemporary relevance. Quiz him about Dhwani, and he has this to say:
_________
"It.. gives
a platform which encourages a person to rise above his inhibitions and
insecurities and to express his ideas freely. If you’re aspiring to be a person
with vibrancy in thoughts and dynamism in action, then this is the ideal group
to be in."
_________
‘DHWANI’
which was formed only last month, has already managed to create waves among the
legal fraternity here, as evidenced by an ever growing number of members and
participants at its debates which are held every Friday evening at the Theosophical
Society, Ernakulam. The subject of each Friday’s debate is informed to members
of the group in advance so that they can come prepared and make an effective
contribution in the deliberations of the group. The facebook page of ‘DHWANI’
explains its objective thus :
“Dhwani’s
objective would be to encourage uninhibited discourse on issues with the
intention of eliciting truth and dissemination of the same. Dhwani would strive
to air the voice of Truth and to dispel the commotion of misinformation,
without the baggage of any ideology. It would act as a platform for ‘unlike’
minded people, who have a passion for knowledge and reason, to share their
views and opinions. In ‘Dhwani’, such divergent opinions and dispositions would
be synthesized and Truth would be refined out of crude facts. Thus, ‘Dhwani’
would act as a distillery of Truth; and a repository of knowledge. Whether
truth could be so easily synthesized and refined is another problem.
Nonetheless, there will be an attempt. But there would not be any fundamental claim
on such truth and it would be subject to further synthesis, as all sorts of
fundamentalism is an anathema to 'Dhwani'. The dialectical method developed in
Ancient Greece by Socrates, and also in our civilization through ‘Tarka
Shastra’, will act as a guide for our investigation of truth.”
Earlier this week, the editor-in-chief
of Kerala Law Review had an e-mail
conversation with Shri. Manu Sebastian to better understand the objectives of ‘DHWANI’,
the nature of its deliberations and the kind of impact it hopes to make. Here is the full text of the transcript of the interview:
KLR: How did the idea of forming 'Dhwani' originate? How were the seeds of ‘Dhwani’ planted in your mind?
Manu Sebastian: I must confess
the idea for forming the said group for facilitating discussions and
dissemination of information came to my mind during last Gandhi Jayanthi, while
I was reading some articles on the life of Gandhiji. Though I have some reservations about
Gandhian thoughts and way of life, in Gandhi I could find a determined person
who was good at organizing movements for public causes. He was a man of action with doggedness and
taking inspiration from him I too felt that I should do something more creative
involving people, rather than confining myself to the profession. While so, the
idea of a ‘debating society’ introduced to me by my friend Adarsh three years
back came to my mind. Though we used to have discussions on the idea, nothing
concrete was done to further it. I felt like reviving that idea and to act for
realizing it. Immediately I called up my friends Adarsh and Legit and they also
felt encouraged. Thus the idea became a reality. If I am permitted to give an
analogy, the idea was akin to a piece of ember covered under ashes, and I just
blew off the ashes to reignite the flames. Only the initial push was given, and
the events took their own course to their logical end, courtesy the
wholehearted support rendered by Adarsh and Legit. It was due to the efforts of
Adarsh that we could find a place for our meetings in Theosophical Society.
Legit has been a source of strong moral support and his never dying optimism
has been a great help during moments of self-doubt.
__________
"taking inspiration from him (Gandhi-ji) I too felt that I should do something more creative
involving people, rather than confining myself to the profession."
___________
KLR: Is Dhwani a closed club of lawyers,
or is it open for all?
Manu Sebastian: Not at all. It’s just that the founding members are lawyers
and it’s just a coincidence. It’s open
to all sections.
___________
"It was due to the efforts of
Adarsh that we could find a place for our meetings in Theosophical Society.
Legit has been a source of strong moral support and his never dying optimism
has been a great help during moments of self-doubt."
___________
KLR: What would you say, is the USP of Dhwani?
Manu Sebastian: I’m afraid USP would be wrong
term to use in connection with our group. And we do not claim to be having any
exclusive speciality as well. It’s a forum for encouraging free thinking and
uninhibited expression of ideas, where people from different walks of life
having diverse ideologies and philosophies assemble. It will open one’s mind to
other perspectives on reality and thereby would enrich a person. It also gives
a platform which encourages a person to rise above his inhibitions and
insecurities and to express his ideas freely. If you’re aspiring to be a person
with vibrancy in thoughts and dynamism in action, then this is the ideal group
to be in. In our generation, there are many who feel very dissatisfied with the
system and live with a strong sense of cynicism about everything and feel that
nothing could be changed. Then there are some who are not at all concerned
about what is going around and are happy with the comforts of their life.There
are also some who maintain extreme views and fundamental positions. Such
cynicism, apolitical attitude and fundamentalism are all unhealthy trends. Our
intention is to eradicate such negative inclinations in youth and thereby to
enable persons to be spirited agents of change.
KLR: Why this preference for the
'dialectical method of discourse' adopted by Socrates? How does it help in
arriving at the truth?
Manu Sebastian: ‘Dialectical method of
discourse’ developed by Ancient Greek philosophers has withstood the test of
time. It is a process wherein the validity of a hypothesis is tested by
subjecting it to harsh attack from opposing views. Thus the hypothesis is
distilled and purified with the antithesis to form a synthesis, which is lucid
with logic. Even our adversarial system of judiciary is inspired from this
thought process. It’s very simple- you test the strength of an argument in the
touchstone of the counter-argument. It does not rely on rhetoric, or appeals to
emotion and sentiments and is strictly logical in its investigation of truth.
KLR: The facebook page of ‘Dhwani’ refers to the
classic story of the blind men and the elephant to canvas for the proposition
that there could be various versions of truth which we remain oblivious of
because of the limitations of our senses etc. How tenable is the use of that
analogy? Isn't that analogy strictly applicable only to the case of subjective
experiences? How do you explain its applicability to say, socio-legal or
political matters which are what find a place on the agenda of ‘Dhwani’?
Manu Sebastian: The simple
fable of ‘blind men and the elephant’ conveys a very deep thought and it is
very apt to describe our founding philosophy. An exact version of truth is
possible only in matters pertaining to science. In matters pertaining to
socio-political issues, such certainty of truth is not possible. All of us have
our own opinions, which emanate from our mindsets formed by our subjective
experiences. For example, on an issue like reservation, a person from a
disadvantaged group and a person from privileged class would be having
differing opinions. And its not possible to brush aside either of the view
points as totally baseless. There is an element of truth in both the versions.
So our perspectives regarding socio-political issues are always incomplete and
it becomes more cogent upon knowing the other-side. The endeavour is to rid
ourselves of the tendency to cling obstinately to our views and to enable us to
be alive to other possibilities. There is no unidimensional version of truth.
While in scientific investigation the objective is to arrive at the most accurate truth by excluding all other
possibilities, in socio-political issues the objective should be to arrive at
the most appropriate truth by
balancing all other possibilities. We intend to do that balancing act after
weighing all contrasting opinions.
__________
"Our perspectives regarding socio-political issues are always incomplete and
it becomes more cogent upon knowing the other-side. The endeavour is to rid
ourselves of the tendency to cling obstinately to our views and to enable us to
be alive to other possibilities."
_________
KLR: Isn't it plausible that the
participants of Dhwani may discuss topics and events of which they themselves
have little direct knowledge of by virtue of their being non-participants or
non-actors in such developments, and only hearsay awareness or knowledge, or
speak on borrowed ideas. How then, would be your quest for deriving the truth
be achieved in such an event in view of the imperfections of the participants
to aid in the quest for truth?
Manu Sebastian: Well, I don’t
totally deny that. But our human mind is capable of discerning information and
processing it for the purposes of arriving at a conclusion and one needn’t have
a direct participation in the events for that. For example, to take a position
on the rights of LGBT, one needn’t essentially belong to that category. Or to
form an opinion on Palestine-Israel conflict, on needn’t hail from those
regions. Last week we had a discussion on Nehruvian legacy, and none of us,
obviously, are the contemporaries of Nehru; still we could have a fruitful
discussion which was rich with information and suffused with diverse views.
Yes, I don’t deny that there could be imperfections. But that needn’t preclude
us from probing the issue. To arrive at the best possible conclusion within the
constraints of available means and materials- that’s the endeavour.
__________
"Yes, I don’t deny that there could be imperfections. But that needn’t preclude
us from probing the issue. To arrive at the best possible conclusion within the
constraints of available means and materials- that’s the endeavour. "
_________
KLR: Even the
Evidence Act followed in Courts in India for well over a century now speaks only of probabilities
of proof, and not about derivation of truth. That probably shows how difficult
and vexing an endeavour, derivation of truth is. When even Courts therefore
concern themselves with only judging which of the litigants before it has
been able to discharge the burden of proof to its satisfaction, isn't your
quest for derivation of truth a little too idealistic, far-fetched and
impractical?
Manu Sebastian: As stated
earlier, our quest for truth is not a forensic or empirical method and it’s a
process of balancing act to reach an appropriate position with respect to an
issue. The Greek philosopher Plato has propounded a concept of golden mean, which represents the ideal
position one has to adopt with respect to an issue after accounting for all
perspectives. Our derivation of truth approximates the said concept of golden mean. We are not making any
claims for deriving the absolute truth. Our philosophy also rejects the notion
of singularity of truth. So the derivation of truth, as explained above, is
totally practical and achievable. Yes, a quest for absolute truth can be really
vexing and it is capable of being undertaken by high quality minds, like that
of Jesus, Buddha, Sankaracharya etc. We are not functioning in such higher
planes for the moment. We are more concerned with temporal matters, to which
all of us can relate to. Idealistic, it is; but idealism does not deter us. On
the contrary, it inspires it. We all should aspire for ideals, shouldn’t we?
_________
"We are not making any
claims for deriving the absolute truth. Our philosophy also rejects the notion
of singularity of truth."
_________
KLR: How would
you cope with increasing participation in Dhwani's experiments with truth?
Given the obvious constraints of time which you face, and the need for letting
every speaker share his/her views and juxtaposing it with the need to derive
the truth, as you put it, wouldn't it become too unwieldy and difficult to
handle?
Manu Sebastian: Increasing
participation is not at all a matter of concern and that is something we really
welcome. We are functioning in a disciplined manner, quite conscious of the
constraints, and so far it has not been difficult. But there is an area of
imperfection which comes in our process, which is the interplay of the
emotions. The dialectical method as explained above, is a very stoic and
logical method, and to practise that one needs great discipline of mind. So
often one tends to get impassioned about his views and that clouds logic. There
is also an individual bias in favour of a proposition advanced by one,
emanating from one’s egoistic attachment to the same, and it often precludes
one from letting go of the position and
accepting a contrary version. When one cannot rely much on reason and logic to
substantiate the contention, recourse is made to appeals to emotion, by
employment of rhetoric and sophistry. That is a method of winning an argument; but not for derivation of truth. So the presence of such subjective and
emotional elements does vitiate our process often. But that’s an issue which
could be worked out gradually.
__________
"When one cannot rely much on reason and logic to
substantiate the contention, recourse is made to appeals to emotion, by
employment of rhetoric and sophistry. That is a method of winning an argument; but not for derivation of truth. So the presence of such subjective and
emotional elements does vitiate our process often. "
__________
KLR: Let's now come to the second part of the interview, Manu. How do you
envisage Dhwani, say 5 years down the line. What kind of impact do you think
Dhwani would be able to make in society? What is the impact you would like to
see Dhwani make in society?
Manu Sebastian: We would
want to see our group emerging as a collective of intelligent and free thinking
persons, who would be able to enlighten the people about the issues which
affect their lives and thereby to help them to deal with the same in an
effective manner. Instead of getting carried away by the glib talk of
politicians and the misinformation dished out by popular media, we will
embolden the people to respond to issues in a rational manner after arriving at
an appropriate decision with respect
to the matter. We would want to spread the idea of dialectical method and
inculcate the habit of questioning and probing in the minds of people, so that
they would absorb information only with a pinch of salt. Making the public more
discerning- that would be our impact. And discernment only comes through
practise and our sessions would enable a person to be so. Our idea is to form a society which doesn’t react in a knee-jerk fashion; but only
after studying and analysing the matter. Let people have a bit of scepticism
about everything; but not cynicism. Let people not get swayed away by high
voltage media campaigns and the cult imagery of demagogic politicians. Thereby
we will have a healthy and powerful democracy.
_________
"Instead of getting carried away by the glib talk of
politicians and the misinformation dished out by popular media, we will
embolden the people to respond to issues in a rational manner after arriving at
an appropriate decision with respect
to the matter."
_________
KLR: Please share with us your
future plans for the expansion of ‘Dhwani’. Manu Sebastian: As of now
our activities are confined to having weekly discussions on topics of social
relevance. We are planning to take measures to disseminate the information and
perspectives gathered in our sessions to wider public. We have a facebook page
which contains information regarding our activites. But we would like to have a
wider reach across the society, and we intend to float a magazine, preferably
in vernacular medium, so as to spread our ideas to all sections of society. We
are also attempting to solicit the presence of distinguished individuals in
different fields so as to have a well-informed discussion on topics touching
upon their respective fields.
We are also desirous of collaborating with educational institutions, so
that we can have the participation of students as well in our group. Since
there are lawyers in our group, we plan to have legal awareness campaigns in
schools, which would enable the school children to have awareness of our
constitution and legal system from a young age and we believe that would help
in bringing up citizens with better civic sense and increased awareness of
rights and duties. Now our activities are centred in Cochin and we are seeking
to expand to other parts as well gradually.
__________
"We
are also attempting to solicit the presence of distinguished individuals in
different fields so as to have a well-informed discussion on topics touching
upon their respective fields. "
_________
KLR: Thank You, Manu for
spending time with us and enlightening our readers about your debating group, ‘Dhwani’.
We wish you and your friends all success.
[Editor's Note: Readers are welcome to ask any further questions to Adv: Manu Sebastian about his group 'Dhwani' by posting their queries as comments hereunder in the 'Comments' section. KLR will endeavour to get the answers to the queries posed by readers from Manu himself, and publish the same as a supplement to this interview.]
